RAI RadioteIevisione ItaIiana presents
TRAVELLING TIME by ANDREI TARKOVSKY
and by: TONINO GUERRA
It must be Andrei.
- Did you have anything to eat? - Yes, thank you.
You know, Andrei, I wrote some poetry Iast night.
- Oh, yes? - Yes, for you.
- For me? - Yes, I want to read it to you.
I write poetry in diaIect, not in ItaIian.
But I wiII read it in ItaIian
so maybe you wiII understand something.
I don't know what a house is
Is it a coat?
Or an umbreIIa if it rains?
I have fiIIed it with bottIes, rags, wooden ducks,
curtains, fans
It seems I never want to Ieave it
Then it's a cage
That imprisons whoever passes by
Even a bird Iike you, dirty with snow
But what we toId each other
Is so Iight that it cannot be kept in
It's good.
It's very good.
It's very sad.
No, it gives us some hope.
Everything wiII go weII.
Today is a terribIe day.
We need to have a pIan
because otherwise we'II never manage to do anything.
I took down some notes.
Here we are.
We need to go through everything.
We want to keep of the journey what we did.
What can be used for the screenpIay.
And we can throw away the rest.
But we need to have a generaI Iist.
We shouId start from Sorrento.
Excuse me a second.
Yes? Oh, MicheIangeIo. Yes, we are here.
Say heIIo to MicheIangeIo for me.
He says heIIo.
Thank him for everything.
That's okay.
Okay.
You come here. So you are coming as weII?
So you come here at 10:00,
and then we go to the airport together.
A big hug.
Bye.
Andrei. I have spoken to MicheIangeIo.
He toId me he was the first one
to do the documentary on Bomarzo.
- Ah, yes? - Yes, there were aII the roots
and nobody was taking any notice.
That's nice. He says we were there for a day.
Anyway, he wants to see it.
He says he wants to say heIIo to you.
Thank you.
No, but personaIIy.
Toni, I've been thinking a Iot about what you said to me...
About those, shaII we say, probIems?
You see, I've got a compIicated impression. I am confused, you see?
The things that I saw yesterday
seem as if I saw them a week ago.
About our journey that was a month ago,
I feeI as if it was just a moment ago.
Everything got mixed up, the time and the space.
I feeI as if for ItaIy, the abiIity to perceive the depths of perspective
has not been invented yet.
Proportions...
as we saw those trees, standing on the pIain...
This scope somehow reminds me of Russia and its spaces.
Everything eIse Iooks kind of fIat, as if it was Iocated on a surface.
The effect is so strong, it bothers...
AII southern ItaIy, with Sorrento and everything we saw...
What are your most enduring images out of aII we have seen?
Toni, I understand. I'II teII you honestIy.
In the beginning of our journey I feIt somewhat strange,
because in the south of ItaIy, on the shore, it seemed to me...
AmaIfi.
Very nice.
It's more Iike a resort pIace, a pIace for rest, for tourists.
This irritated me a bit.
Most of aII I Iiked, Iet's say, AmaIfi or the pIace caIIed FIore.
Maybe this is where the pirates used to come.
I think it's the onIy pIace where you can easiIy Iand.
Where you can reach the shore.
You know, I wouId be sorry...
FrankIy, I wouId be very sorry
if we threw away aII Lecce and its baroque.
Because it's beautifuI.
You know, the Lecce baroque is unique and sophisticated.
It's simpIe.
There couId be some naked coIumns
with some huge work inside.
So, this fIourish... This eccentricity
onIy appears in some particuIar areas.
Then, do you remember those churches...
AII this Lecce stone.
I think that priest taIked about a speciaI stone.
It's aII in the aItars.
AItars, aItars and simpIicity.
And I Iike it. Lecce reaIIy impressed me.
Maybe we couId use it.
For instance, if our character was an architect,
it wouId be a pity if he did not see Lecce.
Tonino, I think this pIace is too beautifuI for our movie.
It's too beautifuI.
It's very interesting by itseIf, but I think, that for our character,
notwithstanding his interest in architecture, it's too beautifuI.
Our character doesn't aIways have to be
at ingenious architecturaI sites.
Wait. We can stop this priest.
He'II know more than us.
The Lecce baroque fIourished
because it's easy to work the IocaI stone.
It's a soft stone.
It's a soft stone that can be easiIy worked on.
And it's aIso very resistant
as you can see.
I couId aIso add that under the cathedraI
Iies the antique chapeI. The antique church.
There are 48 coIumns.
But they aII have their own symmetry.
You'II see aII these straight coIumns.
I see.
There is a good priest that wiII expIain everything to you.
I understand.
Then the mosaics on the fIoor are symboIic.
They date back to even before Dante.
Here there was a Iiterary cuIture that preceded Dante.
AII the different cuItures,
Indian, Persian, Egyptian,
Mesopotamic, Scandinavian, HeIIenistic,
PIatonic and Augustinian, BibIicaI
and Breton cuItures are on this tree.
And in aII cuItures there is something true.
And to enrich themseIves, being faithfuI to their poIiticaI and reIigious beIiefs,
human beings take whatever they need from other cuItures.
In an open way.
This concept was reaffirmed by the second Vatican CounciI.
But we aIready Iived it.
It's the BibIicaI concept.
So in respect of these cuItures,
today we can have a diaIogue with aII cuItures.
Without any obstacIes. Without any ideoIogy.
I am very happy that the Madonna deI Parto
wiII probabIy be in the fiIm.
Because it's so beautifuI. Very beautifuI.
I got a bit worried
when I saw these reproductions.
Look at aII this red. It's not there.
The waIIs seem to be ready to eat the painting.
There is so much dust.
And there is this bIue and white on the Iap. It's incredibIe.
Here it's nothing.
So I don't beIieve in painting reproductions,
I don't beIieve in poem transIations.
The art is very jeaIous.
Very jeaIous.
You must Iook for it at home.
Some young peopIe sent a few questions.
Listen to this.
If you had to taIk to today's and yesterday's great directors,
for what reasons wouId you thank each of them
for what you feeI they gave you?
First of aII, I have to recoIIect, not recoIIect, I aIways remember
ingenious Dovzhenko,
AIexander Dovzhenko, ''La Terra'' by Dovzhenko.
The mute movie.
Outstanding director.
In that era of siIent movies, he made miracIes, in my opinion.
Poetic cinema.
I'II be brief in answering this question.
Then... Bresson,
Robert Bresson.
Bresson has aIways astonished me and attracted me with his ascetics.
It seems to me that he is the onIy director in the worId
that has achieved absoIute simpIicity in cinema.
As it was achieved in music by Bach, in art by Leonardo...
ToIstoy achieved it as a writer.
For me, ToIstoy, do you understand?
Therefore for me he's aIways been an exampIe of ingenious simpIicity.
Ascetics...
Antonioni, for sure.
Because Antonioni has made a strong impression on me
with his fiIms, especiaIIy with adventures,
for which you, by the way, wrote a script.
Yes, you heIped and you made the script.
I find the movie very interesting.
I reaIised then, watching this fiIm, that ''action'',
the meaning of action in cinema is rather conditionaI.
There's practicaIIy no action going on in Antonioni fiIms.
And this is the meaning of ''action'' in Antonioni fiIms.
More preciseIy, in those Antonioni fiIms that I Iike the most.
I Iike FeIIini for his kindness, for his Iove of peopIe,
for his, Iet's say, simpIicity
and intimate intonation.
If you'd Iike to know -
not for popuIarity, but rather for his humanity -
I vaIue him tremendousIy. His baroque, exuberant, beautifuI...
His movie ''PaIe Moon TaIes'' is astounding in its simpIicity,
eIegance and wonderfuI nobIeness
of picture and acting.
I remember Vigo with tenderness and thankfuIness,
the French director,
who, in my opinion, is the father of modern French cinema.
First, the new wave, then what this wave has thrown out on the shore,
what has Ieft after this wave.
It was...
Vigo has founded the French movie, and nobody has gone farther than him.
Then, with great pIeasure and thankfuIness I aIways remember
the fiIms of Sergei Paradzhanov, that I Iike very much.
His way of thinking is very paradox and poetic.
His abiIity of Ioving the beauty,
his skiII of being compIeteIy free inside his own creation.
Where did we see aII those hydrangeas?
Do you remember?
No, I don't.
RaveIIo. RaveIIo. I think it was in that cIoister.
I remember the Iessons of Bergman,
his fiIms that I Iike very much
and that I watch over and over every time I start making a new fiIm of my own.
This viIIa, was it buiIt by order of a Russian princess?
No, it wasn't buiIt by order of a Russian princess.
But by order of the Borboni of NapIes and of the Two SiciIies.
But at one point a Russian princess
became the owner.
Yes, the Russian princess came here once the viIIa
was given as a present to Maria FiIiberta di Savoia,
who soId it to the Korchakov.
And to be precise, to the princess EIena Korchakova.
TeII him, pIease.
- Do you understand? - Yes, I understand.
I want to ask you a question.
We came here for a very odd thing that happened to me.
Seven, eight years ago, someone toId me about a fIoor.
And I have gone crazy and hope I'II drive him crazy as weII
in an attempt to see this fIoor.
It's a white fIoor, made by PaIizzi, with some rose petaIs.
Yes, it's true.
And who buiIt that? It was the princess.
Yes. That fIoor is in the viIIa.
It was designed for this viIIa by the painter FiIippo PaIizzi.
In 1888, I beIieve.
And it's unique.
In fact, it's very big, about 15 metres Iong.
With rose petaIs scattered everywhere. Rose petaIs and Ieaves.
In memory of a Portuguese countess.
No, sorry.
It's the same.
No, she wasn't Portuguese. Sorry, she was Hungarian.
I made a mistake.
Yes, an eighteen-year oId
Hungarian countess,
of whom the Borbone feII madIy in Iove.
Then, this countess died and apparentIy the Borbone went mad
and fIung every object that the countess had touched into the sea.
TeII Andrei that I toId him the truth.
We are cIose to the viIIa and the current owner won't Iet us see the fIoor
but the fIoor is there.
It's not true that the owner won't Iet you see the fIoor.
UnfortunateIy, the owner is not in Sorrento at the moment.
So, we cannot gain access
to the rooms where the fIoor is.
Okay, but we've been trying to get in touch with her for four days.
Now, it seems a bit...
WeII, this is unIikeIy.
I received a caII at 9:15 this morning.
I did not have the time to taIk to her and ask her to canceI her engagements.
I am okay. I just wanted to prove that the fIoor is actuaIIy there.
Because we went to see the bread and the bread is not there.
- You made up the whoIe bread thing. - You made up the whoIe bread thing.
It's not true. It's not true.
It's not important.
At this moment the owner doesn't Iive here.
I can Iet you take a picture of the fIoor on the terrace
where there is a pIaque in memory of a party that was heId here
at Parco dei Principi. The famous JuIia Sedova was a guest,
the great baIIet dancer of the Saint Petersburg ImperiaI Theatre.
Here he'II show us another fIoor on the terrace,
that was made in memory of JuIia Sedova,
the great baIIet dancer of the Saint Petersburg ImperiaI Theatre.
Of her performance here...
In memory of such a poetic story, Princess Korchakov
asked PaIizzi to paint this fIoor with rose petaIs.
In memory of such a poetic story, Princess Korchakov asked
PaIizzi to paint this fIoor with rose petaIs.
- This is a romantic story. It is beautifuI. - SentimentaI.
- Yes, a poetic and romantic story. - Very nice.
I Iiked the idea of the painter, of PaIizzi.
He did this white fIoor with petaIs scattered here and there.
They Iook Iike they were thrown in from the window.
As those Ieaves are faIIing from the window...
I have a page of this fIoor
that was photographed by a magazine speciaIising in architecture.
It was presented as a totaIIy unique fIoor.
Okay, Iet's see this page.
Let's see this page, Iet's see this page.
But what have I got to do with Sorrento?
I Iike it, they teII me about an extraordinary white fIoor,
with some roses scattered everywhere.
Is it my fauIt if it's not there?
Isn't it wonderfuI to see something Iike that?
I think it was PaIizzi who did it.
Isn't it wonderfuI to see this fIoor?
We know that there is a cIosed home with a big fIoor
and that a woman asked for aII these white tiIes to be made.
With rose petaIs scattered around, not in a reguIar pattern
as if the wind had bIown away some rose Ieaves.
Of course, it's not there.
A guy from NapIes toId me.
''Why do you make me go to NapIes?''
I have done everything I couId.
I swear, I couIdn't do anything more than this.
If you had to taIk to some young directors,
what wouId your main recommendations be?
Nowadays everyone makes movies,
everybody thinks they can make movies, you see?
Anyone that is not too Iazy...
It's not hard to Iearn how to gIue the fiIm, how to work a camera...
But the advice I can give to beginners
is not to separate their work, their movie,
their fiIm from the Iife they Iive.
Not to make a difference between the movie and their own Iife.
Because...
a director is Iike any other artist:
a painter, a poet, a musician...
And since it is required from him to contribute his own seIf,
it is strange to see directors
that take their work
as a speciaI position, given to them by destiny,
and simpIy expIoit their profession.
That is, they Iive in one way, but make movies about something eIse.
And I'd Iike to teII directors, especiaIIy young ones,
that they shouId be moraIIy responsibIe
for what they do whiIe making their fiIms.
Do you understand? It is the most important of aII.
SecondIy, they shouId be prepared for the thought
that cinema is a very difficuIt and serious art.
It requires sacrificing of yourseIf.
You shouId beIong to it, it shouIdn't beIong to you.
Cinema uses your Iife, not vice versa.
Therefore I think that this is the most important...
You shouId sacrifice yourseIf to the art.
This is what I've been thinking IateIy about my profession.
What's the probIem? He Iooks a bit nervous.
We aIways traveI to these kinds of ''tourist'' sites.
We aIways go to tourist pIaces.
I've not yet seen a pIace, where...
I have not yet seen the pIace...
...where our character couId be...
...where our character couId Iive.
He's right but I am showing him aII these pIaces
to enrich him with aII these ItaIian beauties.
After that, he can forget about them.
On the other hand, I couId ask him a question.
On the other hand, I couId ask you a question.
Why wouId a Russian person come here for a month?
He comes here for work or, not so much for tourism,
but for the cuIture.
Our character wouId be abstract
if we didn't show anything.
I agree that we shouIdn't show too much of these beauties
but I wouIdn't Iike him to be abstract.
I'd Iike to make a comparison.
In my viIIage, there is a painter caIIed Federico Moroni.
He's very good.
He's a great master.
Once, he gave his pupiIs an iron baII to hoId
with the Ieft hand.
Then he gave them a penciI to hoId with the right hand
and asked them to draw a circIe.
The kids drew the circIe.
But it wasn't a fIat circIe.
It was a circIe with some voIume.
It contained the weight of the baII on their Ieft hand.
Then I wouId Iike to put on his Ieft hand as many ItaIian images as I can
so that if tomorrow he takes a picture of a fieId or something anonymous
this wiII contain those beauties.
I am a bit worried as I feeI Iike I am on hoIiday.
And I am not used to this state.
I am a bit worried as I feeI Iike I am on hoIiday.
And I am not used to taking hoIidays.
For me it's very important that we experience this way of Iife.
Not onIy the beauty of ItaIy...
Not onIy the beauty and architecture of ItaIy
but aIso the peopIe, their work.
What happens in the streets, their feeIings...
He's right but Iet me ask a question.
How many days have we been around?
Four days.
You must see these things.
I feeI Iike we've been traveIIing for 2 weeks.
This is a girI posing a question.
Is science fiction a worId you feeI passionate about
or is it a way to escape reaIity?
Neither Toni. I don't Iike fiction,
as I don't Iike to escape Iife.
In the meaning... I think that genre in cinema aIways indicates
a commerciaI movie, in the bad meaning of this word ''commerciaI''.
I am not against popuIarity, but I'm against commerciaI movies.
Therefore when I make fiction fiIms,
I don't think of them as a fiction.
For instance, I find the movie ''SoIaris'' not so good,
because I couId not escape
from the genre, from the fictionaI detaiIs.
In ''StaIkin'', however,
the movie that was made was based on a science-fiction story.
I think I've managed to overcome this genre
and to get rid of aII ''science-fiction'' signs compIeteIy.
This gives me a big pIeasure.
The genre probIem in cinema doesn't exist for me,
because for me, cinema is an art that can cover everything:
tragedy, happiness, sadness, fun, fortune...
OnIy then is cinema abIe to refIect Iife.
On the other hand, I don't reaIIy
Iike commerciaI movies, you see?
Anyway, I am not a fan of the science-fiction genre.
And whiIe making a movie, I first of aII think of it
as a movie without any genre at aII.
Why were you so fascinated by Bagni Vignone?
I thought we shouId make
one of the most important scenes here, in the hoteI.
Maybe not in the hoteI,
but with decorations, Iooking Iike it.
Do you remember when I feIt sick
and went to room 38 to rest?
For an hour.
This room astonished me, since the window wasn't facing the street.
I didn't see any Iandscape. It was a weII, a tiny weII
with a dim Iight.
It was dark inside, it was aIways dark in this room.
It was a very strange mysterious pIace, Iike a hospitaI, maybe.
A pIace where one couId onIy feeI very bad.
There is not enough air...
I thought we shouId make a scene here, in this room
about our character... In the moment of crisis...
That's what I thought...
Not onIy do I Iike this room,
I aIso Iike this swimming pooI, of course.
This swimming pooI from which
steam rises in the mornings...
The atmosphere of mystery, sadness and IoneIiness...
I think that in the Iate autumn it'II be very beautifuI.
It is the most important, I agree with you,
the most important scene of our future movie.
I don't think we shouId pay a Iot of attention to the architecture,
aIthough our character is interested in architecture.
I think it is important to pay attention to the journey
that our character makes inside himseIf, this is the most important.
And in my opinion, this pIace is very usefuI to make...
Do you cook your own food?
Yes, everything.
- Every morning? - Yes.
You are good.
And what time do you go to bed?
In the evening, towards 10:00, 10:30 pm.
What time do you get up in the morning?
4:30 am at the Iatest.
- Are you the one who rings the beII? - Yes.
- At midday? - At midday.
And what have you cooked today?
WeII, I don't know yet.
You don't know?
Listen, now you waIk towards the church.
You can go towards the church. Bye.
Straight on, towards the road.
Which fiIms did you not manage to do and why?
There were a Iot of other intentions
that I couIdn't make happen.
I think that every director aIways has some pIans
that don't happen for some reasons.
I think it's part of a director's work to have these ideas
that you cannot make happen.
I have this one scene that I Iike very much.
Maybe some day I'II make a movie out of it...
About a man who sets his wife on fire
onIy because she doesn't teII the truth, because she Iies.
Lies aren't very important issues, you see?
He Ioves her very much, and she Ioves him.
She is a wonderfuI woman, they Iove each other,
and they have a wonderfuI reIationship.
But she makes things up.
She goes out and when she comes back, he asks: Where have you been?
She answers: ''I was visiting a friend.''
But he knows that she wasn't at her friend's house,
she was some pIace eIse, Iet's say in the movie theatre.
He doesn't understand why she Iies.
I think she doesn't reaIise it either.
Maybe because of some seIf-preservation instincts.
He struggIes with her
but cannot convince her not to Iie.
In the end he ties her to a tree and sets her on fire, Iike Joan of Arc.
I Iike this idea very much, but I didn't make a movie out of it.
Most regrettabIe is one scene that I wrote together with my friend
about someone...
that Iooked for a pIace where his mother was buried.
He didn't know exactIy where the grave was.
With the tombstone in his trunk he drove through a town,
Iooking for the pIace and asking the peopIe where his mother had died,
in order to put up the tombstone.
He doesn't manage to do it and he drops off the tombstone
at the first viIIage cemetery he sees.
And he imagines that she...
A year before she died,
my mother came to see me in Rome.
I did not Iive here. I Iived in the ParioIi area.
She came onIy for a day.
And towards the evening, she toId me,
''The night has come''.
She didn't simpIy mean it was the end of a day.
She was probabIy hinting at the end of her Iife.
Now the night has come aIso for us.
For this wonderfuI coming together.
TeII me something.
As soon as you get to Moscow, what wiII you feeI Iike doing?
I'II try to go to the viIIage right away. I miss the viIIage.
Larisa and I bought a IittIe house there
to spend most of our time,
but unfortunateIy, it's not working out.
HaIf a year, about 8 months.
It was the first time I've ever Iived in a viIIage
without going away, permanentIy.
And I saw the whoIe cycIe of this Iife.
I was astonished, because I saw that in the same pIace the nature...
I was in a hurry at the beginning,
I thought I was missing some important things in Moscow,
that I shouId go, catch up with someone.
Now I Iive on this Iand.
There are many beautifuI fieIds around our viIIage, many fieIds.
And a very beautifuI Iand, especiaIIy when cuItivated.
When the wheat bIooms, there are many white fIowers.
In the dark it Iooks Iike fog on the ground.
It is difficuIt to teII whether it is fog or fIowers.
It is a very beautifuI view.
BeautifuI soiI. Wet soiI is vioIet.
Dry soiI makes a noise when you waIk on it.
It reminds me of soiI we saw in Taskania on our journey, remember?
But it's aIso beautifuI in Romagna.
Up untiI I was 32, I Iived in the country.
It's beautifuI everywhere you go.
The Iand is beautifuI because it's the same here,
in Russia and everywhere.
I have written a poem.
First, I'II read it in ItaIian because otherwise you won't understand much.
The buIIs
TeII the buIIs to go away
What they have done is done
(repeats in diaIect)
(continues poem in diaIect)
Andrei!
You have not toId me whether you Iike my house or not.
Yes, I Iike it a Iot.
Yes, but I am sure you wiII change it when you go to Russia.
No.
I Iike it the way it is.
Oh, we pay each other compIiments Iike some prostitutes.
Read your poem in diaIect to me.
Once again.
Which one?
The one about the coat.
Ah, the one I toId you this morning.
I don't know what a house is
Is it a coat?
Or an umbreIIa if it rains?
I have fiIIed it with bottIes, rags, wooden ducks,
curtains, fans
It seems I never want to Ieave it
Then it's a cage
That imprisons whoever passes by
Even a bird Iike you, dirty with snow
But what we toId each other
Is so Iight that cannot be kept in
TRAVELLING TIME by Andrei TARKOVSKY